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Author Topic: The Good News About *  (Read 8759 times)

BigMike

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The Good News About *
« on: January 03, 2009, 02:58:33 PM »

Give these a look-see and let's discuss :agree: 6 videos, they are short, about 10 mins each and should be watched in order.

The Good News About * (1 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/v/D_60qxuB8yk&hl=en&fs=1

The Good News About * (2 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/v/xY5V6n3OTkY&hl=en&fs=1

The Good News About * (3 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/v/yjzZNcamkas&hl=en&fs=1

The Good News About * (4 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/v/WaZ2V95Imbw&hl=en&fs=1

The Good News About * (5 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/v/2hCqqPtGMX8&hl=en&fs=1

The Good News About * (6 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/v/doKC8xNwN2I&hl=en&fs=1

Discussion is now open :)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 03:21:55 PM by BigMike »
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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 10:56:25 PM »

Boy,...those sent to * are so blessed. :headscratch: 

* can't burn forever.  :hmmm: Death is going to happen.  I always had the thought that those who gone to * would be there for internity suffering the whole time.

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suzuh

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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2009, 08:54:50 PM »

no offence but can you say  :preach: jahove witnes teaching  would you say jesus was a liar when he spoke of the perabol of the rich man an lazarus when the rich man woke up in * to burn for eternity?
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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 04:26:36 PM »

That's what came to my mind to Gabriel.  Glad I wasn't the only one.  I love checking this stuff out.  Thanks Mike!
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BigMike

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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 02:31:55 PM »

no offence but can you say  :preach: jahove witnes teaching  would you say jesus was a liar when he spoke of the perabol of the rich man an lazarus when the rich man woke up in * to burn for eternity?

Hello suzuh,

Thank you for your comment. Sorry I have not been able to reply until today.

I actually prepared a lengthy reply but later found it fell far short of something I found online. Please see the following explanation for how I believe this parable is meant to be understood:

Quote
Luke 16:23-25

The flame he sees and feels upon his resurrection is the ultimate fate of the wicked: being burned up?destroyed?in Gehenna fire, the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14-15). The Lake of Fire represents the second death from which there is no return to life. This death is final and permanent; it is the absence of life for all eternity. It is eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.

When the rich man opens his eyes in the resurrection, he sees the flame of fire that is about to destroy him permanently, and it paralyzes him with terror, making his mouth go dry. He complains that the flame is tormenting him. In these verses, the Greek word translated "tormented," odunomai, means "to cause pain; to pain, distress; pain of body, but also pain of mind, grief, distress." This rich man, resurrected to physical life, sees this Lake of Fire and realizes the terrible doom he is about to face. Sobbing, he suffers mental anguish and despair and begs for a little water from the tip of Lazarus' finger to cool his tongue. Nevertheless, he must reap what he sowed?death!

Source: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/25644/eVerseID/25644
Note: I don't know anything else about that site, only that this passage is explained in the same way I learned it. The author makes an important point which is also expressed in the video I linked in the opening post of this thread:
* is eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.


Regarding your comment of doctrine, the speaker in the youtube video is a Seventh Day Adventist.

I enjoy discussing this, please let me know what you think!

Regards,
BigMike
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BigMike

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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2009, 02:38:58 PM »

I also wanted to add that Lazarus in this passage should not be confused with the Lazarus who was raised from the dead in John Ch11. I mention this because I originally thought this back in high school.

Here are some more quotes from the above link:

Quote
Lazarus, who represents those who are Abraham's spiritual children, is resurrected at Christ's return with all the firstfruits (I Corinthians 15:23). These saints will live through the Millennium (Revelation 20:4), but the rest of the dead will not live until the thousand years have past (verse 5). The rich man, then, will not return to life until a thousand years after Lazarus and all the saints have been made alive.

All human beings know they will die (Hebrews 9:27), but the dead have no thought or knowledge?they know nothing and can do nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10). They are totally unconscious (Job 14:21). David writes: "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; in that very day, his plans perish" (Psalm 146:4). The rich man, at the time of his resurrection after the Millennium, will come to consciousness, knowing absolutely nothing of the centuries that have passed since his death. To him, it will seem that only a fraction of a second has passed.


Quote
The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows the resurrection from the dead, not an instantaneous going to heaven or *. It is a resurrection from death, not from life. It depicts mortals who die and are dead, not immortals who never lose consciousness and live forever under punishment in a fiery *. Jesus describes bringing back to life one who was dead, who had no conscious realization of the lapse of centuries and millennia since his death.


Everyone please be motivated to discuss! :agree11:
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BigMike

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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 05:33:56 PM »

I would like to take a look at what the Bible has to say about death. All references are from a KJV Bible.

Job 14:10-13 "But man dieth, and wastheth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (11) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: (12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. (13) O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!"

So we see that once we die we give up the ghost and remain in the grave until the "heavens be no more" which is referring to the 2nd coming described at Revelation 6:13-15.

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So we see here that God breathed into our lifeless bodies, and when this happened, we became a living soul. So we are all souls. Some people ask me, 'where does your soul go when you die?', answered simply: "into the ground to biodegrade."

Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

All souls are the property of God, even Jesus' soul.

John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Here Jesus' simply breathed his last breath and his soul became lifeless. Of course Jesus had to remain dead for 3 days to fulfill prophecy. If he went to Heaven while he was dead then salvation is a lie. Jesus had to defeat death in order to save mankind from it!

Job 27:3 "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;"

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."


We see that when we die our spirit returns to God who gave it. This is what it means to give up the ghost. You cannot say that our spirit represents us in Heaven because we were not alive before we received the spirit from God. If so, then it would also mean that those who are yet born are in Heaven waiting to come down as a human, and no where is this concept described in the Bible. You cannot say, "I will have a baby in the future, but right now my future baby is in heaven walking around". That is unbiblical.

Does the Bible support the concept of remaining in the grave when we die? Yes it does!

Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Here we see that we have no knowledge and do nothing in the grave. If we went to Heaven immediately, wouldn't you say we would obtain new knowledge? Therefore we do not go to Heaven when we die.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Here we see that we don't even have a reward when we die.

John 5:28-29 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Here John tells us straight-out that when Jesus returns at His 2nd coming the dead in Christ will be risen from their graves. It wouldn't make any sense if we died and went to Heaven, but then had to return to Earth for the resurrection of life. This is redundant and unbiblical. No where does it say that we will enter Heaven twice.

Psalms 115:17 "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Here we see again that when we die we cannot praise God. If we went to Heaven then wouldn't you expect to praise God?

Job 7:4-10 "When I lie down, I say, When shall I arise, and the night be gone? And I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day. (5) My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome. (6) My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope. (7) O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good. (8 ) The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not. (9) As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. (10) He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more." (emphasis added)

In verse 6 we see there is "no hope" from the grave. If you died and went to Heaven, wouldn't you "hope" for your loved ones to do well "back on Earth?" Verse 7 tells us that we can't see anything good after we die. Isn't Heaven a great and wonderful place? Verse 8 & 9 tells us that once we are dead, we are gone. "Witches" can't bring your "spirit" back to life. This is only possible through an evil spirit impersonating, which the Bible clearly warns us about. And in verse 10 we see that after we die we do not go anywhere and our friends and family will no longer know us. Therefore, saying "My father/brother/grandfather is watching over me right now" is spiritualism, not Christianity. The Bible also warns us against spiritualism, which is something everyone needs to become mega aware of in the near future.

Psalms 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."


How many more texts do we need to drive this point home? According to the Bible, when we die we cannot even praise God! If you went to Heaven when you died, wouldn't you praise God when you got there?!

In conclusion, if you believe people go immediately to Heaven after they die, then you are saying Heaven is a boring place (Ecc. 9:10) with nothing to do (Ecc. 9:10), with no hope (Job 7:4), no praise in Heaven (Isa. 38:18 & Ps. 115:17), no memory of God in Heaven (Ps 6:5), no knowledge of anything at all (Ecc 9:10), no celebrating in Heaven (Isa. 38:18), no hope (Isa. 38:18), nothing good to see in Heaven (Job 7:7), no rewards in Heaven (Ecc 9:5), and no one will even know who we are (Ecc 9:5).

Mike


EDIT: Changed quoted Bible font color to limegreen for better readability
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 06:36:12 PM by BigMike »
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BigMike

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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 06:08:46 PM »

I forgot to add an important question...

If you died and immediately went straight to Heaven, how could that be such a wonderful place with no pain, no suffering, no sin, and no sadness when you are looking down at all the chaos and confusion and sin and hatred and killings and suffering of this world?

How could you be peaceful in Heaven when you know all this crap on Earth is going on?? Obviously the Bible is right when it says in Revelation chapter 21...

"(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."


So THIS world must be deconstructed and destroyed before sin is put away permanently. But we are still here, this world is still here, Earth is still spinning and yet there are billions of people who have died in the past. Once they no longer have the breath of life as described in Genesis 2:7 and Job 27:3, they are simply asleep, just like Lazarus of John 11....

"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. (13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." John 11:11-14 KJV

In my opinion I am faaaaaaar happier to know that people who have died are simply sleeping. How wonderful is that? They have no cares, no worries, no fears, no anxiety.......

There is absolutely no reason to worry "ohhh no.... is my mother in Heaven right now or is she being tormented in *" because 1) * is not a place or location (it does not exist on a map, it is not a physical place) and 2) they are simply asleep!

After all why else do we say, RIP, "Rest In Peace" This is because when you die you are asleep and at peace until that glorious day when Jesus is in the sky with a cloud of angels, and we go UP TO the sky to meet him *IN THE AIR* (Jesus will never again touch this world, see 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17). How wonderful that will be! Amen

Mike



EDIT: Changed quoted Bible font color to limegreen for better readability
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 06:36:24 PM by BigMike »
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"Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. With His

BigMike

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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 06:33:18 PM »

Heh, sorry for all the posts, but I just indirectly brought up another key point:

......until that glorious day when Jesus is in the sky with a cloud of angels, and we go UP TO the sky to meet him *IN THE AIR* (Jesus will never again touch this world, see 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17).


Take a close look at 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17, I never realized this is more evidence until just now:

"(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and shall we ever be with the Lord."


We shall be caught up TOGETHER (those who were asleep in their graves + those who managed to stay alive without seeing death), together with them (where?) in the *clouds*, to (what???) TO MEET THE LORD in the air.

Wow! I never realized this! This supports John 5:29 where it says we shall come forth from our graves.

But more important to this discussion is where it says in 1st Thess. 4:17 that we will MEET Jesus! How many times can you meet someone? You can only meet someone once. So nobody is going to Heaven when they die or else the Bible is wrong throughout.

Mike


EDIT: Changed quoted Bible font color to limegreen for better readability
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 06:36:31 PM by BigMike »
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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 10:55:36 AM »

Interesting.

 Meet can be for the first time as well as future gatherings....

Example: I could tell my family "I'll meet you at home."


My  :2cents:
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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 11:10:26 AM »

How many times can you meet someone? You can only meet someone once.
:headscratch: Can't I meet you for Breakfast one morning. And then a couple of hours later meet you again at the trailhead. In my opinion you can meet someone over and over. You can meet someone for the first time only once though. Is that what you meant?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:27:25 AM by Ironman »
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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 11:14:48 AM »

Well...

Since that will be the very first time we will see and be with Jesus, it makes since that we will be meeting him then doesn't it? Granted it's not my strongest argument as I just thought about it while proof reading my prior reply. Did you guys only read my last reply?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:15:47 AM by BigMike »
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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 12:05:00 PM »

No, been following along. The Bible says in numerous spots that Jesus' spirit is already with us. Don't know the spots where they are found as I don't have my Bible with me at the moment. But "I will never leave you or forsake you" and " I will be with you always" are the scriptures that come to mind. It's true that I didn't meet Jesus 2000 years ago in the flesh while he was here on earth, but my spirit knows him well. John 14:21 "Those who obey my commandments are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will reveal myself to each one of them." And 23 "My Father will love them, and we will come to them and live with them" And 18 " No I will not abandon you as orphans-I will come to you."
     I don't believe that these are future events that aren't going to happen until Jesus comes back for us, but is something that is going on now to all Christians that believe.  :disdain9:
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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 04:01:14 PM »

:headscratch: Can't I meet you for Breakfast one morning. And then a couple of hours later meet you again at the trailhead. In my opinion you can meet someone over and over. You can meet someone for the first time only once though. Is that what you meant?

There are many forms of the word "meet"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meet

The question we should be asking is what did the original dialect mean that this was translated from?
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Re: The Good News About *
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 05:48:59 PM »

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